Hello lozenge123

Love this question ... miracles, law of attraction, manifestation, good magic, black magic, radionic, reiki, radiesthesia, the list could go on forever, all have one thing in common ... it is the practice of purposely putting into motion subtle energies, communicating with the invisible if you prefer ... in this sense a religious ceremony is identical to performing a magical ceremony.

Where does the line occur ? ... it's all to do with maintaining healthy harmony. There is always feedback, harmony attracts harmony, disharmony attracts disharmony. Taoists, yogis and zen masters always perform in perfect harmony with the natural laws ... :)

In response to your "they didn't live long" comment, I'll say this. I have no interest in being an old man. Seeing as I have to die eventually anyway, I don't see anything negative about dying at a younger age. I either cease to be at that point, in which case it doesn't matter when I die, or have a chance to be restored to youth, in which case I have essentially found the secret to eternal youth: to die young.

I think the line is very clear. In black magic, one imagines the existence of self-interested, free entities (often malevolent) which one attempts to influence and associate with, in an attempt to gain their favor. In white magic, one imagines the existence of selfless or enslaved entities, which one attempts to control in an attempt to extend his power. It is interesting that white magic involves slavery while black magic involves negotiation.

This distinction between self-interested and selfless also bleeds into the way the person views himself: as someone that directs the course of his life by his own desires (black magick), limited only by the structure of reality, or someone that must follow the will of a higher power (white magick), free only to a limited extent, if at all. This is why some are drawn to black magick.

The LoA on the other hand assumes there are no entities to deal with at all, it merely assumes a separation in ourselves known as conscious and unconscious, the conscious being the director, the impregnating male, and the unconscious being the manifester, the impregnated female which is forced to bear his children; Adam and Eve.

So to put it another way, magick systems create a map of a spiritual realm that is in a way an extension of the physical realm. They seek to control its power in the same way that a scientist seeks to control the power of physical nature. Black magick assumes the spiritual realm is filled with human-like creatures while white magick assumes the spiritual realm is filled with objects or at the most, animal-like creatures, which can therefore be domesticated in the same way that a dog or a horse may.

LoA assumes that the individual is God and that all power resides within him. There is no manipulation of the external because the external is assumed to be nothing but himself pushed out.

I would imagine that "the line" is different for everyone and it is up to us and our consciences, to know when we have crossed it.

For myself, I use the LOA for good...health, wealth and happiness. I refuse to try using it to get over on someone, to try manipulating anyone else, or to try having anything that does not belong to me. If you want to truly delve into the subject, since we all have free will, it is not even possible to harm another without their permission, but that is another subject in many ways. I only try to use it for "good" by my definition.

"There is major overlap between the manifesting principles discussed here (the type advocated by Abraham Hicks and Bashar) and the "miracles" performed in ancient times by Moses, Jesus, his disciples, Taoist wizards, yogis, Indian gurus, etc.."

Agree, the same thing. But personal point of view can see vast differences.

"Black Magic(k)" might be considered attempting to influence others to unwillingly do your bidding. As white tiger says, it is ego based.

Since we have the freedom to individually exist in different universes, people can create a universe of their own where "black magick" has power to "harm" others, or themselves.

The LOA will operate inexorably to manifest according to the individual's focus. But as the individual "attracts" within that universe of "dark forces" they will face this darkness and multiply it.

Certainly, if you think, believe, in these forces, it will be so for you. In some universes, Superman exists; Hitler won WWII; Freddie exists; Aliester Crowley still does rituals to bend Pan to his will. You have the right, the ability to visit horror movies, or any other "movies".

You can focus on other universes, where there is "white magic."

Personally I tend to focus on "grey". :)

EDITED: One of the reasons I studied magick was that I realized that when I got very angry at someone, they suffered. There were quite a few instances. It seemed they began experiencing very bad luck. Anything that could go wrong, did go wrong!

I went to a lot of metaphysical teachers to see if there was some way of turning this off. I did not intentionally want people to suffer. I did not intentionally program they would suffer, so these teachers told me I was not at fault. I wanted to use this to help people instead. So I began visualizing good things coming to them. This seemed to dispel the bad and maybe help.

I was studying astral projection as a way of studying the Qabala, but had little "physical plane" experience. Until

A woman I knew asked me to help her on the astral plane to influence a potential boyfriend who was not paying her the attention she wanted. She was living with another guy, but thought she could have an affair on the side.

She said that she would meet me on the astral at midnight and we would "visit" the protential boyfriend. She wanted me to be the male influence in her working. I thought, "Yeah, right, SURE!" I did not think this was possible.

I was meditating about midnight and she appeared. Very surreal. We flew to an apartment that I had never seen. I watched as she began putting erotic images about herself into the sleeping guy.

Was very weird. Early the next morning she called me and asked waht I had experienced. She described his apartment and I filled in a lot of details. She knew the apartment and agreed. This indicated that this was a real experience.

Later on that same day she called me in a panic. It seemed that the "potential" boyfriend had called her about ten times, after never calling her before, wanting to get together. Her live-in boyfriend had answered the phone a few times and was asking her difficult questions!

So she asked me to meet her again, on the astral, and "cool this guy down!"

Same story that night. She removed images. He never called her again, but a relationship that I was having suddenly turned bad, the girl started saying that she could not trust me. There was no connection between the other situation, but this relationship, an important relationship to me, suddenly and totally fell apart.

I guess this was black magic and I paid a price.