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Do we have free will, as Christians to choose Christ as our Savior, and be saved or not choose him and bear the consequences, since God has foreknowledge of everything we will do?
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I cannot answer your question from a Christian perspective. I can, however, give you my take from an "All that is" perspective, that is closer to my choice of comprehension. The inner self is pure and free flowing from the division of the source called the soul. From within this perspective and identity is created, which then becomes the interface upon this "now moment" of physical existence. This identity is asking, "Where am I in the bigger picture? Am I really free and guaranteed a re-assimilation to the source no-matter what I choose to do here?" The answer is; "If you realize that you are the identity of the Source, therefore the leading edge of the source, what would you do to yourself, if you could do anything to yourself. Because that's what everyone and everything else is; Your spiritual "self" In this realization, the self begins to treat everything as the self (in mind). And what is in the mind comes forth in action. God knows everything that will happen up to the edge of your free will. Your free will is the leading edge, which is a double-edged sword. How you treat yourself with this free will (how you judge yourself) is how you will carry forth your actions towards others. Your behaviour and miss-behaviour is held in balance by "judgement" or "ask and it is given" or "reap what you sow" or "cause and effect" or "Karma". Therefore, there is really no misbehaviour, only choice. It is an adventure with guaranteed trips home where you get to assess the consequences of your exercise of your free will. If you are asking, "Am I guaranteed a trip home? The answer is ABSOLUTELY!" What you need to ask your self is "what kind of a report card am I taking home?" No matter what report card you bring, you are LOVED ABSOLUTELY! However, before this window of opportunity is over, you can decide to realize IF THIS UNIVERSE IS ME, HOW WILL I CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH IT WITHIN MYSELF IN CONSCIOUSNESS BEFORE THAT INTERACTION IS REFLECTED AS REALITY! If we can demonstrate this realization to ourselves through the reflection of it, from within ourselves, this maybe the last report card we will take home from this particular school of learning. Having said my two cents worth, I am sure that our Christian friends can put forth a scripturally inspired answer that is far more to-the point and vibrationally in harmony to the question, you have asked. 1
@The Traveller - All religions speak the same basic truths. My Christian viewpoint is a path that appeals to me, a perspective. I can find "scripturally inspired answer(s)" in any religion. I see wider gates. Many paths to the same mountaintop. All valid. I very much like hearing other viewpoints. I particularly like your post above. Resonates with me!
(18 Apr '12, 08:02)
Dollar Bill
As a 6'1" male, I have a different perspective from my 5'7" wife. I value her perspective. Speaking of her perspective, we recently had guests who brought a woman we had not met. My wife, on the phone, asked how tall she was? Anne then went on to explain that the height of this woman would determine how far up Anne would feel it necessary for her to clean! LOL!
(18 Apr '12, 08:06)
Dollar Bill
You’re a lucky man. She is very practical. I had a good laugh over it! Thank you for sharing that life can be practical and fun in every moment, depending on how we look at it.
(18 Apr '12, 08:20)
The Traveller
Love your answer Traveller it resonates with me too.
(20 Apr '12, 02:00)
Paulina 1
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I have said it many times, free will is just an illusion. But I recognize that a lot of people feel anxiousness and hopelessness when you deprive them of their privilege to make "a choice". Everything is in momentum. Energy of each and one of us has a momentum going on. That is why you can sometimes "feel" what you will be doing, or what will happen in the future. Sometimes the near one, sometimes the further one. Imagine there would be no gravity, and you throw billions of balloons into the air, each one having its own momentum, each one representing a certain occasion in life, someone's life, or a simple thought. As every balloon travels across the sky, they bump into each other, deflecting themselves from its original courses, changing their velocity, one balloon can slow you down, and another speed you up. It's not a chaos, even though to our mind it may appear so, it's already predetermined. Where will the balloons be in the next moment and even in the next thousand years. It's our own physical world's limitation to see the grant scheme of all the balloons and to know what will happen the next moment. We travel through life on our own balloon, and we cannot know that in the afternoon of this day, another balloon, be it a story or a thought we hear, a smile we see when passing by a certain person, will inspire us to take a certain action. Because we don't see that other balloon coming our way, but it is. Inevitably it will collide with our own, because its momentum was such. What will happen after these two balloons hit each other, that I will leave your imagination to wonder about. If you are watching a certain tv program, you are watching it for a reason. Whatever the reason may be, boredom, not knowing what else to do, or it simply interests you. There is a reason for what is happening right now. In other words, that reason predetermined the actual situation. These reasons might sometimes be so subtle, that you will not know they are the reasons you are doing what you are doing right now. Can't decide between having a hot-dog or a hamburger? It's already destined which one you will get, because as you ponder about your preferences, there is a reason (balloon) which you will inevitably find (will hit you) determining the course of your pick. But your conscious mind is too simple to see that grand scheme, to realize all that you have ever seen, heard, felt, said,...to realize every word, action, feeling that is happening right at this very moment everywhere around you. And since it is impossible for conscious mind to recognize all these things at once, thus the illusion of having a choice is created. Know, that this is purely my own perspective through which I see the life, that I'm only offering a glimpse of this world, not trying to make anyone live in it. For I love everyone equally and as such I let everyone have their own point of view. Or in other words, it's all the same and nothing really matters. Because for something to matter more than the other a measure, a judgement would had to be made. So really, do we justify we have a choice only to feel better about ourselves? To nurture our egoistic feelings that "we are not slaves, we are masters of our destiny". That is duality, it doesn't matter. Call it free will or determinism - it's all the same. I voted you up before I got to the end of your answer because I agree with much of what you say. I am not burdened with the weight of having to assimilate your perspective with the one's I am choosing to be comfortable with. I have come upon what you are saying more and more as I ask the inner self to show me how things really are. The usual reaction is when one hears "Free will is an illusion" there is a knee jerk reaction of "Well if that is true, they how do you explain this?"
(19 Apr '12, 17:33)
The Traveller
I have been working on myself to break that reaction to try and make sense with everything I come upon where if the new idea doesn’t agree with the existing ideas, then a decision must be made to choose one over the other. I'm still not good at it, but it definitely allowed me to open my mind towards the opposite of everything I want to be true. When I often hint about "us" being in a "trap" this is what I am trying to express. But I'm still coming to terms with accepting this myself.
(19 Apr '12, 17:40)
The Traveller
The movie MATRIX, I believe is talking about this same "pre-determined" limit of options available when one's existence is contained within the "matrix". I am starting to see that there is a "pre-matrix" and "post-matrix" shift that is approaching us, and I think the way to break free from the "matrix" is to realize that "consciousness" Is the "matrix". Or more specifically "feeling" as opposed to "thinking" is the key.
(19 Apr '12, 17:45)
The Traveller
I'm starting to see that "thinking" forces the soul to stay within "pre-determined" potential. To a great extent, "feeling" also stays within this, when the feeling is driven by the desire initiated by "thinking". But there is a narrow window where feeling without anticipation (with the innocence of a child), seems to reach past this gate-keeper called "choice". The meaning implied here is that "choice" means "choose from what is available".
(19 Apr '12, 17:55)
The Traveller
@The Traveller you do a very good thing by being open to opposites. For when you know both opposites, you realize they are equal and you will become to see the oneness they both create. It just appears more comfortable sometimes to stay in preferential perspective of one or another. And you are right, to let go of beliefs and let your heart guide you is the key to being free. Your beliefs as nice they may be are in fact just another limitations you impose on yourself.Budha said - believe nothing
(20 Apr '12, 02:49)
CalonLan
I agree with you 100%, especially the quote from Buddha. I now understand what that means.
(20 Apr '12, 03:23)
The Traveller
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Dollar Bill, you have children and you know they will grow up. Yet your children have free will. You might not know when they will make the right decision but you know that eventually they will. Even if you could know at what time they make the good decision, does it mean that they did not have free will? God the Holy Father is Truth. All Jesus teaching are in Truth. If you do not judge you will not be judged. Jesus said to respect the first and second Commandments to stay in the Truth and the Love. in that way you will respect the 10 Commandments. If you ignore that and respect only the 10 Commandments then those Laws become dead stones. Stones of judgement. You are here to experience and perfect your Self, and yes, you have free will so you cannot judge another or blame another. Well, you can still do it with your free will, but on the last day it will burn you because it is your responsibility. It would be better for you to stay in the Truth but you have free will and are responsible of it. Experience and enjoy. 2
I am seeing spiritual advice from a practical standpoint. "Stay in the Truth, is an ongoing exercise, that I think I can never actually attain on the physical plain, however I can TRY, and God honors my sincere trying.
(18 Apr '12, 07:52)
Dollar Bill
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practice makes perfect Dollar Bill do not limit your self always do the best you can God will do the same for you.
(18 Apr '12, 08:44)
white tiger
@white tiger - I interpret "Judge not that ye be not judged. . ." as a statement of consequences If I judge and blame, I can not at the same time, see them as God sees them. He sees them with a Father's Love. If I blame, I pinch off my being able to see and experience God's Love. I distance myself from him. Ouch!
(19 Apr '12, 13:12)
Dollar Bill
that is why i said stay in the truth. example:it is like your employe that you have fired stating that he is a drunk.if he does not drink on the job. what does that have to do with annything? do you know why he drink? do you know the problem in is life? you could say he is late but are you sure that he is late because he drinks? or is it something else? it is easy to judge but it does not help you or him. do you know the truth?
(19 Apr '12, 14:49)
white tiger
Very good answer White Tiger and yes "Stay In Truth" is good.
(20 Apr '12, 02:03)
Paulina 1
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When I was about nine years old, my father dropped me off at an early showing of a movie called the Buffalo Hunter. In this movie a younger and an older man were buffalo hunters. They had long rifles and were unbelievably good at shooting. They NEVER missed. They met a young woman and the younger man began falling in love with her. One thing led to another and soon the older man and the younger man were fighting each other.The young man and the woman ran off together with the older man tracking them and threatening to kill them. At the climax of the movie, the young man and woman were hiding in a cave overnight. They glanced through the opening the next morning and saw the older man sitting on the opposite hillside, wrapped in a buffalo hide with his rifle trained on the cave opening. They knew he was going to kill one of them. Would it be the young man whom he felt betrayed the old man, or the young woman who incited the young man to the betrayal? The long riles were single shot and took a while to reload. It was probable that if they ran, he would only be able to kill one of them. The other could make cover and get away. So they have these long parting goodbyes, certain that one would die. I was on the edge of my seat! Which one would he kill? How sad that this love had to end here! So they each take a deep breath and run, all the while expecting that fatal shot. Running, panting out of breath - yet there is no shot! They circle back, behind the old man who does not move. As the camera pans in, it becomes obvious he has frozen to death during the night. The threat was not real. The older man was dead, clutching his rifle, ice sickles on his eyelids. The screen goes dark, the theater lights come on and I go to the lobby looking for mother of dad to take me home, but they are not there! Later, I found out that mother thought dad was picking me up and dad thought that mother was picking me up. Since neither came, I went back and watched the Buffalo Hunter again. I had never seen a movie twice. At the climax, I watch the young man and woman going through their drama. I got caught up in the drama, but not like the first time. I think I know how the movie will come out. But the characters on the screen have great uncertainty and fear. They run, no shot, they come back and find the old man frozen. Ho Hum. No parent comes to get me. I go back and watch the movie again. Now, I really know the story! but THEY don't! Fear of impending death. Taking action. I am sitting back in my seat, going "Oh come ON! He is dead! No reason to run! But they, again, go through all their drama, their choices. Maybe this is what free will is about. The movie is fixed. The plot is known. I know the entire story from beginning to end. The characters are acting out their parts as the movie is being projected, in their NOW moment. They are making choices, decisions in their NOW moment, no knowing what the Author has in mind for them. Do they, or one of them die? Do they live happy ever after? THEY don't know. Though the movie is following a script, and the Master has the entire script in His Hands. He knows what will happen, but He is looking to the characters to make their choices from THEIR NOW MOMENT. So whether we have free will or it is all preordained is irrelevant. We are living in our NOW MOMENT. Perhaps if we truly know the Truth, we can be better connected to our loving God and co-create a wonderful life! Following the end of the third viewing, BOTH my parents were in the lobby worriedly search for me and being very apologetic. I was fine. I had learned an important lesson! However, in the movie, the people don't have free will. They are destined to replay the same scenes over and over because it is recorded on the tape. The actors have all moved on and many have probably played more roles of their choosing.
(18 Apr '12, 09:07)
Fairy Princess
what if the next time the actor change place between them to learn from the other point of view not in the same movie but in another movie lets say buffalo hunter 2 but they do not remember that they made the choice to experience the other point of view and all that they did to someone else they experience it. new place new body new people. free will still exit responsability is still there. so the alternate reality could be the same reality. just different time and place.
(18 Apr '12, 09:30)
white tiger
@Fairy Princess - The actors don't have free will, they are scripted. But the characters have apparent free will. As far as the characters go,the old man could have shot one of them, if the Writer had written it that way.
(19 Apr '12, 12:30)
Dollar Bill
@Dollar Bill I think you have it backwards. The character has no free will, it is scripted by the writer. The actor has free will to choose the role or reject it. Some actors are even given some freedom within the script to make changes according to their own thinking.
(19 Apr '12, 12:43)
Fairy Princess
@white tiger - absolutely! Experiencing other view points and alternate realities. Also in speaking of actors seeing another point of view, we are watching a very good Korean drama - love story where a very rich, arrogant, eccentric, young man is interacting with a poor, young, humble, stunt woman. Though attracted to each other, they could not understand each other. They swap bodies. He is in her body and she in his. She has to experience his life, while he experiences hers.
(19 Apr '12, 12:43)
Dollar Bill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Xl1qDaAe4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vap7Yc00lIQ&feature=fvwp&NR=1 Available streaming on Netflix - English subtitles. At first they are drawn to each other, but their lifestyles are so very, very different that they attract and repel each other. Then, when they swap bodies, he begins to understand her better, and she begins to understand him. Then they swap back for a while. "Walk a mile in my body!"
(19 Apr '12, 13:05)
Dollar Bill
I know exactly what you mean to portray and yes you could say all of humanity is ordained to eventualy go home to the source. We however think we have a choice on how to get there.
(20 Apr '12, 02:23)
Paulina 1
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The Bible says that there is nothing new under the sun. I also believe that we have free will. So, in the begining when God created us, He created every possible outcome for our lives. To do this, there are alternate realities in which these alternate outcomes exist. Like a Choose Your Own Adventure book. So we are continually moving through different realities as we make different choices in our lives. The trick is figuring out how to move into a non contiguous reality, one where you had a different past, but puts you where you want to be now. Love your answer Fairy Princess. In the end though we all land up at the same place which is the source and that part is ordained.
(20 Apr '12, 02:26)
Paulina 1
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I have truly enjoyed reading through this discussion. I like the question because I think we've all asked it, I like the differing perspectives and the generosity of each contribution. What a great group of folks you are! I belive in Free will, just as I also believe in pre-design. I don't know how it all works together, I just feel that it DOES. I am not sure that understanding it would make any real difference in my life. Hi Eclectic1, Loved your reply and am so glad you are enjoying the answers.
(20 Apr '12, 02:28)
Paulina 1
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Hi Dollar Bill, Great question and yes I enjoyed all the answeres too. With all the free will and free choice man thinks they have (and yes they have) we all still land up at the same place in the end. In that there is no choice. We will all eventualy go home to the source. What we think we do have a free choice with are the things of everyday life and to an extent yes we do. Is every thing in our life preordained? No of course not and this is where even God does not interfear. The choice of how we eventualy get home to source is entirely up to us. We dont allways make the right choice but are luckily given plenty opportunity to do it all over again. Not only do we have a right to choose but we even have a right to choose again once we discover we don't like the choice we made. Yes interaction with others and the world arround us does effect us but in the end the choice of how is still ours. |
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Intuition does not impose on free will. Intuition may undermine free will's privacy, but both are magnetically joined together. 1
Intuition you could say is your way of discovering which choice you made could be bad for you and which could be right. I like your answer.
(20 Apr '12, 02:31)
Paulina 1
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dollar bill, if you can define your god than he is limited to your perceptions. one of our three aspects is determined if it rules by itsef. but the crown jewel of reason does allow choice. and if choice is not free will than let me in on your secret
Fred 1 Personally I see all religions filled with paradoxes. Pre- ordained destiny and free will, or choice can not exist in the same 3d continuum that we inhabit. However, by definition and actuality, religion has its roots in the 4d continuum, or higher. Certainly different. On the next level, with different rules applying, it would not be a paradox.
dollar bill, so what is path suggested to take now to better prepare us for tomorrow, reason and free will or obeisence
@Dollar Bill - I wouldn't make the assumption that we're all Christians here. Even though I'm not religious, I come from an Islamic background
My Dear @stingray - I mean to speak generically and would like to say that most religions at their roots have the exact same teachings. When I say "God" I mean anyThing - ANY Deity who you want to follow, be It Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, your Inner Self, whatever you want to call your Truth.
All the same to me. I was raised Christian, but have studied many other faiths. All valid depending on the individual. Same Truths.
If we were allowed signatures, this would be mine.
@Fred 1 - I can only speak to and for myself. I try to point my internal GPS to Joy. Read, listen, experience and enjoy. Fill my bowl of life with Light and Truth as best I can. Keep filling that Bowl with Joy and the other "stuff" flows over the top and drains away without any effort on my part.
db, thanks for sharing
@Dollar Bill - Thanks for clarifying